Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced : RSS 0.91

Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced

Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. You are kind to children and animals. You respect the elderly. You respect women. You like women. The problem is some statistics show that 1 in 60 men are rapists. How can you approach a woman you don't know without her kicking your testicles up through your throat?

Salvator @ 10/30/2009 9:28:34 AM

« maven : Sigh.

You do understand how statistics work, yes?

I get that yes, people need to be careful. I'm not saying otherwise.

I too have been raped.

But I will NOT live my life scared that it's going to happen again. If you choose to, and clearly there are a lot who DO, who think living in fear is OK, then go for it. I don't think it's a healthy choice, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

Sorry, men. Some women are going to think you're the boogie man no matter WHAT you do or don't do.

Whish I could double upvote you for the attitude.

I agree that you should watch for signals. I have a lot of experience hitchhiking and it's easy to tell who will not take you with them even if they are going the right way, before you talk to them. By the way, by talking to people I've found 19/20 who are going the right way will offer to take you along, so suck on those statistics.

Aluna @ 10/30/2009 7:16:54 AM

« lynxears : Though this article obviously talks about rape in particular, it mentions a lot of general "scary situations."

Even if a woman isn't watching for a potential rapist, per se, as gammerus' bus experiences show, 75% of the men she meets on the bus are still making unwanted advances/way out of line statements.

Even if knowing about some of the "threat signs" won't decrease the rape rate, if it lowers the "creep factor" at all, that would be a good thing.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say as well. If I hadn't spent precious minutes trying to be polite and not offend, I might have gotten out of my bad situations before anything happened. It was trying to be polite that got me into that mess, not wanting to offend, be a nice girl and a good girl.

Now, things are different. I'm not hypervigilant, but I'm aware of myself and my surroundings and that includes the behaviour of the people around me. You ring my alarms, friend or stranger, male or female, and I am immediately in protection mode. Yes, I will walk away on you mid-sentence or tell you directly to stop bothering me. Your right to attempt interaction, even if you're trying to be positive, does not trump my right to feel secure, and if I don't feel secure, it's over.

(And yes, I do chat with strangers on buses, in coffee houses, and at stores, I'm just wayyyy more careful about it.)

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 11:28:01 PM

« maven : But put that into context...75% of the trips, one person. How many people were on the bus?

I've seen women say things like that to other women.

Oh I'm sorry if I mispoke, but I didn't mean it like that at all. I was refering to people on buses, people driving by, people honking, just people in general that I would encounter fairly often on my bus route.

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 8:42:52 PM

This is all well in good, but I can't say I kept the numbers so it is all guestimation. Just suffice to say that when I did work odd hours it was not uncommon to bump into creepy old men. Also, most of the more demeaning comments came from the engineers that ate in our cafeteria -_-

For some reason guys my own age were rarely rude to me which is why my new college based route is much much more pleasant.

Moe @ 10/29/2009 4:58:31 PM

« maven : But put that into context...75% of the trips, one person. How many people were on the bus?

I've seen women say things like that to other women.

A guesstimate of 15 people on the average bus.

75% of the time, one person responded in that way.

Doing that math, it works out to 5% of all people encountered on the bus over all trips.

Not trying to make light of this at all. I am pointing out the disparity in statistical quotes.

75% sounds a lot worse than 5%

maven @ 10/29/2009 3:45:32 PM

But put that into context...75% of the trips, one person. How many people were on the bus?

I've seen women say things like that to other women.

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 3:28:39 PM

« maven:Really, do you expect me to believe that 3/4 of the men on the bus hit on her?

Sorry, I don't buy it. I just don't. I doubt that 3/4 of the men on the bus even notice her--or anyone else. Most men are just going about their day, just like most women are. Do they see an attractive woman? Sure. Do they ogle her? Probably not. You notice attractive men in the park, is that rude of you? Objectify them as eye candy, that's ok?

3/4 of the men on the bus? Of course not. I was refering to roughly 3/4 of the time I traveled on the bus I would run into at least one. But to be fair I did travel during mid day when all the normal people were at work. The only people I usually met who had a job on the bus were working with food (like myself)

I still shudder when I think of that one jackass.
My boyfriend I were walkin down a fair busy street when this punk stuck his head out of the window and yelled "I'd f**k your girlfriend!" sometimes I just wonder wtf is wrong with people.

srsmits @ 10/29/2009 3:20:28 PM

« maven : Really, do you expect me to believe that 3/4 of the men on the bus hit on her?

Sorry, I don't buy it. I just don't. I doubt that 3/4 of the men on the bus even notice her--or anyone else. Most men are just going about their day, just like most women are. Do they see an attractive woman? Sure. Do they ogle her? Probably not. You notice attractive men in the park, is that rude of you? Objectify them as eye candy, that's ok?

Thank you Maven well said

srsmits @ 10/29/2009 3:19:38 PM

« gammerus : Allways keep a can in my back pocket ^_^
Wish I had it when I ran into the dude in the truck tho.

Im telling you right now that did not feel like chili

maven @ 10/29/2009 3:15:18 PM

Really, do you expect me to believe that 3/4 of the men on the bus hit on her?

Sorry, I don't buy it. I just don't. I doubt that 3/4 of the men on the bus even notice her--or anyone else. Most men are just going about their day, just like most women are. Do they see an attractive woman? Sure. Do they ogle her? Probably not. You notice attractive men in the park, is that rude of you? Objectify them as eye candy, that's ok?

*edit to add the quote to specify what I'm responding to

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 2:36:26 PM

Allways keep a can in my back pocket ^_^
Wish I had it when I ran into the dude in the truck tho.

theshirtpocket @ 10/29/2009 2:34:25 PM

I keep wanting to bring up parallels that I draw between this and race. How I could justify my avoidance of Black people after a Black man took my wallet. How stereotyping and a negative bias is wrong in situations of race, but not here. But they aren't the same.

Why? Because we men are going to be the ones that commit crimes, regardless of race. We can't fully justify being racist because crime rates aren't *that* different between different races. But crime rates are vastly biased when it comes to sex. We all know that men will be the ones that commit crimes in the majority of cases.

Now, you can still argue whether or not having a bias against men is fair. But I don't think we should be angry at women who are cautious.

PulsisX @ 10/29/2009 2:24:59 PM

I think that there is a difference between living in fear and being cautious.

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 2:03:43 PM

« Moe : OK...so please. Tell me what WOULD be an "acceptable" way to strike up a conversation with someone you might...or might not...be interested in? Is it so horrible to just want to chat with someone without wanting to go out with them? Is it so horrible even if you DO want to go out with them?

This article states that if both parties meet in church and have their respective mothers with them at the time then that is the safest situation. Hopefully that was a facetious statement, but at this point I am not so sure.

Is there anything that one could do to not be labeled a potential rapist / murderer / assaulter while still being able to have some sort of human contact significant or otherwise?

A lot of it is paranoa, just be respectful, give her space, and if she genuinly seems to want to engage in conversation then go ahead.

I'm just biased because I don't seem to run into as many nice guys.. Well I probably do, but I don't usually remember the face of the guy that helps me load my bike onto the bus rack, but I do remember the face of the guy offering me a ride while I am waiting (alone) in a secluded area for the bus.

Meeting a nice guy is nice, I just personally spend more time worrying about my own safety when out and about on my own than I do about casually chatting with strangers.

Moe @ 10/29/2009 1:37:36 PM

OK...so please. Tell me what WOULD be an "acceptable" way to strike up a conversation with someone you might...or might not...be interested in? Is it so horrible to just want to chat with someone without wanting to go out with them? Is it so horrible even if you DO want to go out with them?

This article states that if both parties meet in church and have their respective mothers with them at the time then that is the safest situation. Hopefully that was a facetious statement, but at this point I am not so sure.

Is there anything that one could do to not be labeled a potential rapist / murderer / assaulter while still being able to have some sort of human contact significant or otherwise?

lynxears @ 10/29/2009 1:32:51 PM

« gammerus:I think moving out of the west side might help too :/

Babysteps.

I rode the bus/walked to work in a very upscale neighborhood, and while post people weren't chatty, those who were were like your experiences.

Plus *gobs* of honking horns/wolf-whistles.

And one guy saw me standing at the bus stop alone and offered to drive me home. When I said no he said, "What? I'm not going to cut your throat or anything, haha."

I said "Isn't that what a murderer *would* say?"
He only left when three other people walked up to the bus stop. Scary.

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 1:30:14 PM

I think moving out of the west side might help too :/

lynxears @ 10/29/2009 12:42:51 PM

« maven :
Sorry, men. Some women are going to think you're the boogie man no matter WHAT you do or don't do.

Though this article obviously talks about rape in particular, it mentions a lot of general "scary situations."

Even if a woman isn't watching for a potential rapist, per se, as gammerus' bus experiences show, 75% of the men she meets on the bus are still making unwanted advances/way out of line statements.

Even if knowing about some of the "threat signs" won't decrease the rape rate, if it lowers the "creep factor" at all, that would be a good thing.

maven @ 10/29/2009 12:04:00 PM

Sigh.

You do understand how statistics work, yes?

I get that yes, people need to be careful. I'm not saying otherwise.

I too have been raped.

But I will NOT live my life scared that it's going to happen again. If you choose to, and clearly there are a lot who DO, who think living in fear is OK, then go for it. I don't think it's a healthy choice, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

Sorry, men. Some women are going to think you're the boogie man no matter WHAT you do or don't do.

Koruzarius @ 10/29/2009 12:00:06 PM

« maven:Not to minimize your experiences, but this makes the point that no, the RANDOM STRANGER was not the threat. It was someone you KNEW. Not really the same thing as being afraid of everyone you see on the bus or subway.

It's not one or the other... just because the one she knew was more of a threat, doesn't make the random stranger not a threat.

If I remember correctly, it is 4 times more likely that it will be the person you know, which is a sad fact itself, but that still leaves 1/5 who are strangers. Given that the generally accepted ratio of women who are sexually assaulted is 1/6, that means that approximately 1/30 women in the US will be sexually assaulted by a total stranger. While that's less than the approximately 1/8 who will be assaulted by someone they know, that doesn't mean that strangers are not a threat.

EDIT: Also note that, as shown above, some people are sexually assaulted more than once (I would go so far as to estimate that most have been), which makes the numbers that I stated an underestimation of the real state of the situation.

maven @ 10/29/2009 10:29:49 AM

« Aluna : I've been raped and assaulted twice - once as a child accepting a ride home from a family friend, and once as a young teen, while walking with a friend's boyfriend through the park in broad daylight.

If I'd known this woman's commonsense advice, maybe I wouldn't have frozen in fear both times while trying to be "polite". Maybe I would have felt I had the right to run away, instead of waiting through the rape until he started beating or cutting me and it was my life in danger and not just my soul.

And maybe if more men had read this, I wouldn't have fought off innocent conversations because they were just ringing too many alarms that I'm NEVER going to ignore again.

I'm going to read this to my son and daughter.

Not to minimize your experiences, but this makes the point that no, the RANDOM STRANGER was not the threat. It was someone you KNEW. Not really the same thing as being afraid of everyone you see on the bus or subway.

I'm not advocating women being victims, but I think judging everyone as a rapist before they've even opened their mouth, just because they have the equipment, is a sad choice about how to live your life.

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 9:18:26 AM

« srsmits I wish it was that easy to get attention as a guy :P

No you don't

Koruzarius @ 10/29/2009 9:14:58 AM

« srsmits : Edit: And to the other part...I wish it was that easy to get attention as a guy :P

It's so easy to say that while being in the position of power. You have the control in the situation, so getting attention would be nice for you.

When a woman gets that kind of attention, things like people driving by and yelling sexual comments at them, you know what that says? It says that their wants take precedence over the woman's needs, in feeling that their "expression" is more important than the woman's comfort, which is a pretty good indicator that they are exactly the type of man who would use that same power difference to justify rape or sexual assault.

It also turns the woman into a sexual object, it dehumanizes them. And you know where else people tend to dehumanize people? Before commiting a genocide against them. Hitler called the Jews rats to convince his people that they aren't worth the same as a "real" person, and this process is the same, even if the man who says such things isn't actually commiting rape or sexual assault, he's perpetuating the culture that allows it.

Aluna @ 10/29/2009 7:43:38 AM

I've been raped and assaulted twice - once as a child accepting a ride home from a family friend, and once as a young teen, while walking with a friend's boyfriend through the park in broad daylight.

If I'd known this woman's commonsense advice, maybe I wouldn't have frozen in fear both times while trying to be "polite". Maybe I would have felt I had the right to run away, instead of waiting through the rape until he started beating or cutting me and it was my life in danger and not just my soul.

And maybe if more men had read this, I wouldn't have fought off innocent conversations because they were just ringing too many alarms that I'm NEVER going to ignore again.

I'm going to read this to my son and daughter.

jie @ 10/29/2009 6:29:08 AM

I'll take issue in this way -- I'm only really on my guard the minute he tries to get me alone. If someone tries to get me alone and I don't know them that well, I start thinking of what I can use as a weapon. I actually love conversations with strangers, but there's no reason to get me to wander off somewhere...

srsmits @ 10/29/2009 2:58:39 AM

« gammerus
Umm, who does that hand thing post 90's?

I haven't been on a bus in a while you caught me :P

Edit: And to the other part...I wish it was that easy to get attention as a guy :P

gammerus @ 10/29/2009 2:49:36 AM

« srsmits :
If you cant have a decent conversation with a stranger then that is your problem. I have conversations with strangers wherever I go, its not because I want to date them. That seems to be the bigger issue...

That is an issue. I like talking to people, and I like to be friendly. But having had to take the bus a lot over the past several months I can say from a female perspective it isn't a good idea.

Maybe you don't mind being hit on by guys older than your father, being honked at (should you acknowledge the driver),having guys explain they would "f**k you", oh wait... I don't think you've had that happen have you?

This is what happens when I am friendly on the bus 75% of the time. Sure, I have met some nice people on the bus, but I have met many more a*****es that cannot think with two heads at once.

if we are sitting on a subway car and I strike up a conversation get your head out of your arse and just enjoy conversation. If I did ask you for a phone number just come up like some lame excuse or so oh that's flattering but NO. Then your not a B***H your just a nice girl from the subway that wasn't interested. To flip your hand in the air and say PSHHHHHHHH whatever makes you look like the infamous "Douchebag", and just like a bad comment in the retail world from that day forth you will be labeled as such lol

Umm, who does that hand thing post 90's?

srsmits @ 10/29/2009 2:13:35 AM

I think the biggest problem here is the mixed messages....
For example Ladies...
I may not be on high alert for "dangerous men" all the time, but I definitely am.

;) Just kidding but honestly this article disturbs me. Fortunately for the writer of the article I wouldn't want to have a conversation with her as she sounds like an arrogant prune who would be too busy filing her nails on the subway car picking out who she things is worthy of her.

If you cant have a decent conversation with a stranger then that is your problem. I have conversations with strangers wherever I go, its not because I want to date them. That seems to be the bigger issue...if we are sitting on a subway car and I strike up a conversation get your head out of your arse and just enjoy conversation. If I did ask you for a phone number just come up like some lame excuse or so oh that's flattering but NO. Then your not a B***H your just a nice girl from the subway that wasn't interested. To flip your hand in the air and say PSHHHHHHHH whatever makes you look like the infamous "Douchebag", and just like a bad comment in the retail world from that day forth you will be labeled as such lol

Uggghhh whatever ladies do your thing lol

Koruzarius @ 10/29/2009 12:19:28 AM

« lynxears : I agree...but say one thing. Don't keep talking unless you see a change in the "message." If you comment on her book and she keeps reading, don't keep pestering her. If she answers with more than a few words, that's probably an invitation to continue.

That's a point for sure, but you have to be aware that you are potentially invading their personal space, and if they continue to give you "do not disturb" signals, it really does mean "back off". What it does not mean, is that she's a "b***h", it means that she is giving you a signal that you should not in any way misinterpret, and that's totally her right.

Another thing that men have to be aware of, is that society has taught women that they need to be polite to everyone, partially in order to avoid the aforementioned label. This may result in a polite response, without really meaning that she has an interest in continuing conversation with you. So you should be conscious of her attitudes, watch to see if she's really engaging in the conversation, otherwise, you should still probably back off.

donteatpoop @ 10/28/2009 11:58:19 PM

Moe, you are an asswipe.

gammerus @ 10/28/2009 8:22:57 PM

« Moe:Call me an asswipe but I take issue with some of this.

Take issue all you want, I'd rather be safe than make sure someone's feelings aren't hurt. I am very defensive whenever I travel alone by bus or foot. I have found I get hassled much much less often when I am on the defensive.

Maybe it's because I live in a crappy area, but I have met my share of unfriendly situations.

edit: I was much more open and nicer to strangers before a dude in a truck fallowed me home making lewd gestures (I was walking)

This isn't to say you cannot approach women who are alone, just do so remembering that they cannot read your thoughts, and they do not know your intentions.

PulsisX @ 10/28/2009 8:22:08 PM

This is a great article for young men who are thinking they would like an LTR. This is great advise if you are dealing with sane humans. Unfortunately, I know many of my fellow mans have a taste for the crazy ladies and no desire to get into a "relationship". In which case all this advise is totally wrong.

I suspect the real message of this is not behavior modification advise for men but more rape awareness for everyone. It is a terrible crime and I feel awful for the women that feel like they deserved it and don't report it.

lynxears @ 10/28/2009 4:10:04 PM

« theshirtpocket : I'm sorry, but I don't really understand the point you are trying to get across. Is it that the bad vibe you got proved to be accurate in this case? What I'm wondering is how this event has shaped your behavior and mindset today.

The point is that all the women were picking up on a "vibe" through his actions and mannerisms that -- even though we couldn't really articulate them -- said "danger!" to all of us, and that, for whatever reason, the men were not tuned to the same level of awareness.

So we were picking up on cues that maybe the guys weren't, because we have this tendency to need to look out for dangerous men.

As for today...I trust my gut feelings about a person, initially.
Not to say that I treat all men differently because that one was a creep, but when I have that eerie feeling of creepiness, I listen and don't trust easily.

theshirtpocket @ 10/28/2009 3:57:56 PM

« lynxears : I think this article does a good job describing the different aspects of it. For example, this guy moved into my dorm in college. All the girls, universally, felt a really creepy vibe and got uncomfortable around him. I wouldn't approach him when I was alone, even though I wanted to be friendly. The guys thought we were all overreacting and being mean.
...Until we found out why he'd been thrown out of another dorm: He'd locked his newly-ex girlfriend in a closet for several hours, and held her hostage. No formal charges were filed and the school just threw him out of that dorm, but the important point is that the creep factor was high on that guy even before we knew his past.

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand the point you are trying to get across. Is it that the bad vibe you got proved to be accurate in this case? What I'm wondering is how this event has shaped your behavior and mindset today.

maven @ 10/28/2009 3:02:14 PM

I take issue with the idea that all day, every day, I'm worrying about and actively trying to avoid being murdered or raped.

*checks*

Nope, haven't spent any time on either of those activities today...or yesterday...or pretty much ALL of the previous decade.

In fact, I can think of precisely four times when it WAS an active thought process. In one instance, the choice seemed to be pick one or get both, so what the hell. Poor planning, mice and men.

In general day to day encounters, it's all about secondary signals. I'm one of those people who tends to be in my own little world when I'm in a public place. I'm thinking about where I'm going, what I need to do when I get there, the grocery list, did I remember to take out something for dinner, etc. All of which means I am definitely giving off 'do not talk to me' signals, but not intentionally. There is a difference between looking out the window because I think you're a creep, and looking out the window because I'm lost in thought (unfamiliar territory, you know). If a guy--or anyone, for that matter--says something to me, the reaction to THAT is what should be used to determine their next words. If I glower, step away, and cross my arms in front of me, well, yeah, it's either creep on first site, or I'm really pissed and should be left alone.

lynxears @ 10/28/2009 2:58:04 PM

« Moe:
That's a nice laptop. Oh that's a fantastic book. Hey is that a good book, I was thinking about getting it. I love the view of the city up here on the train.

I agree...but say one thing. Don't keep talking unless you see a change in the "message." If you comment on her book and she keeps reading, don't keep pestering her. If she answers with more than a few words, that's probably an invitation to continue.

...which I find true for anyone.

*edited to respond to maven's comment below*
I may not be on high alert for "dangerous men" all the time, but I definitely am.

I think this article does a good job describing the different aspects of it. For example, this guy moved into my dorm in college. All the girls, universally, felt a really creepy vibe and got uncomfortable around him. I wouldn't approach him when I was alone, even though I wanted to be friendly. The guys thought we were all overreacting and being mean.
...Until we found out why he'd been thrown out of another dorm: He'd locked his newly-ex girlfriend in a closet for several hours, and held her hostage. No formal charges were filed and the school just threw him out of that dorm, but the important point is that the creep factor was high on that guy even before we knew his past.

Moe @ 10/28/2009 2:48:44 PM

Call me an asswipe but I take issue with some of this.

You want to say Hi to the cute girl on the subway. How will she react? Fortunately, I can tell you with some certainty, because she’s already sending messages to you. Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you = do not disturb. So, y’know, don’t disturb her. Really. Even to say that you like her hair, shoes, or book. A compliment is not always a reason for women to smile and say thank you. You are a threat, remember? You are Schrdinger’s Rapist. Don’t assume that whatever you have to say will win her over with charm or flattery. Believe what she’s signaling, and back off.

Am I totally off base here?

That's a nice laptop. Oh that's a fantastic book. Hey is that a good book, I was thinking about getting it. I love the view of the city up here on the train.