I'm sure I'll get burned at the stake for this, but I really think it needs to be answered. I know there are a lot of Obama supporters here who just lambasted George W. while he was in office.

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So, tell me...

If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how he inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?

If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have come to his defense and said it was just a joke?

If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?

If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia,would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?

If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?

If George W. Bush had misspelled the word advice would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and 'potatoe' as proof of what a dunce he is?

If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?

If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually get what happened on 9-11?

If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans , would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?

If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?

So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive? Can't think of anything? Don't worry. He's done all this in 5 months -- so you'll have three years and seven months to come up with an answer.

IP, is it really worth getting upset about? Presidents change. We have a new one now. You don't have to agree with everything; some people will agree with things for the new guy that they didn't agree with for the old guy.

Is it *really* worth fighting over political allegiance when, at the end of the day, it actually means next to nothing?

So, tell me, is this thread worth the space?

Honestly, Lynx - the main thing I'm after is for someone to be honest and say that they are giving waaay too much leeway to BHO and holding him to a much, much, much lower standard than they ever held GWB.

I want people to just stop and think about their hypocrisy.

What you see as "honesty" is through your own bias; the people who disagree with you fervently aren't going to be swayed by a right-leaning list of "wrongs".

In short, give it up.

I can't give it up, lynx.

What BHO has done to this country in 5 short months is just as bad as anything GWB did in 8 years.

Yes, it's no secret that I supported GWB while he was in office. But I've also been honest enough to admit he made mistakes and did things I didn't agree with and spoke out about.

When any of our elected leaders do things that I disagree with, I will speak out about it.

Would you have started a whole thread devoted to GWB's failures? Politics is filled with hypocrisy on both sides, IP, you know that. I've seen a lot of Obama supporters cut vast amounts of slack for him when they would have strung up GWB for the same thing. I've also seen a lot of Republicans freak over something Obama did, when if Bush had done it, they would have reasoned with it, if not outright supported it.

The two-party system is very much to blame, in my opinion, and this crap will continue as long as we insist on shoving all the candidates into a "Republican" or "Democrat" box, and all the states into a "Blue" or "Red" box. Candidates pander so much to their party that I doubt we know how they really even feel about many issues. It's just more party line bulls**t, and that polarizes us even more.

I have to agree with Lynx. To me, there is no right or left. I consider myself an independent, tied to no party.

Bush made plenty of mistakes, IMHO.

Not saying I agree with all of them. They are pooled from news stories from the NY times, Washington Post, Time, etc. But there is alot of truth there for me.

Am I happy with Obama? No. I am a bit put off they are putting another 2b thru on the cash for clunkers program. I see people making a major purchase (a car) in a recession. Huge mistake. To me, it mirrors the Housing boom/crash where people took on more than they could afford.

I am intrigued about health care, but even though I am not rich, I do not believe people who make top dollar should be taxed to pay for it.

I wasn't happy he took off to France. I wasn't happy about beers with cops and Harvard professors either. He shouldn't even be involved with that.

But, right now, there is no use getting my panties in a bunch over what is coming down the pike. Once elected he speaks in behalf of all of us.

I breathe a sigh of relief now knowing that if Bush would have died, Cheney would not been in control. THAT gave me nightmares.

I think it was worthy of posting. But I don't think it will spur discussion. For "fear" of downvotes. So, kudos for posting anyway.

I'm not sure how much more "leeway" they're giving BHO than any other pres.

It has to all shake out in the end before we can see it.

I usually sit back and ridicule all political leaders equally. But I live in a land where there are currently 3 popular political satire shows that like ridiculing *all* politicians, so I'm just used to thinking nobody is safe from criticism. Or ridicule. Or photoshop.

Our media picks on all politicians. Some get it more than others, some deserve it, but that's how we roll. I think this is because the losers of any election will still play a vital role in the government instead of fading into obscurity.

It's like, what's McCain up to now? Nobody knows. What's Dion up to? Probably being egged by disgruntled Albertans, but everyone knows what his successor is up to, which is scheming a loss of confidence and an election.

I like this opinion piece:
Canadians will find it funny, but it's a decent example of how Canadians view our politicians (all buffoons) and Obama is the subject so it's also on topic :)

Yes. That's what we do here on Plime forums. Try to have intelligent discourse. Emphasis on "try".


I'm wondering what your reaction would be if in a future thread where you tried to express an opinion, someone just told you to "give it up".

This post doesn't encourage intelligent discourse, due to the format and heavy bias. It encourages yelling back and forth.

The delivery was a little confrontational (kind of like a couple weeks ago when my dad asked "So, you still think Obama's perfect?"), but I think so far all the responses have been civil and pretty intelligent-ish.

I will say this- there were a few things on IP's list that I either hadn't heard about (the Austrian language thing... someone better talk to him before he visits Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, or Lichtenstein), or had only heard about in passing, without much in-depth coverage. I do think the media is much easier on Obama than they were on Bush in the last half of his presidency. Part of that is that I think they're always easier on a new president, who is still in that post-election, high-approval-ratings euphoria, but it's definitely not ALL due to that.

Maybe...it's happened before. But there have also been many threads that kept an open and honest discussion going on other hot button issues without yelling back and forth. Icepigs has an opinion and he gave documented examples, not gossip and innuendo, and asked for input from those who disagree. You could respond with your feelings and opinion, which you did, but without the attempt to shut it down. If that was how I felt, I would have just ignored the thread and not commented, but I would never try to shut down a thread where there had not been outright trollish, name calling behaviour.

I didn't try to shut it down; if I'd wanted to do that, I could have had it off the page before anyone else saw it.
I just am pointing out the futility of trying to start an open and honest discussion with content that is meant to be inflammatory.
He ain't gonna get no satisfaction.

OK Lynx, let me rephrase what I thought Icepigs was trying to get at. Is the media (by whatever definition you give to "the media") showing a distinct bias in how they are reporting, grading, rating, etc. Obama's performance as opposed to how they did Bush, especially in light of the documented examples that IP cited?


I think they are, even given what Marli describes as the "honeymoon" period.

I don't like to argue politics, mostly because I don't feel I know enough to debate it well. But since you posed your questions, I'll give you my honest answers. I know what you expect to hear. I know what you want to hear. But believe me when I say people are more complicated than you think.

I might have gotten some giggles from the idea, but given his verbal flubs, a teleprompter would have been a good idea. Politicians usually have a good idea of what reporters are going to ask, so it wouldn't be too hard to create a set of answers beforehand.If Bush spent his own money, I wouldn't give a crap. If he spent taxpayer money - charging it to the company's credit card, so to speak - then yes, I would be miffed.Probably not, but then I don't have a retirement plan other than my savings account.Yes. A bad joke, and in poor taste, but a joke nonetheless, no matter who said it.Again, I would have giggled. The etiquette behind gifts is complex and varies not only between cultures, but from family to family. Some people suck at choosing gifts, yet give with the very best of sentiment. I would have to know intent before judging the giver in any case.I would have rolled my eyes, then forgotten about it.I don't think I would care. To Americans, a bow is just a bow. I might chalk it up to nerves, or an effort to please the King, but that's it.Yes.No, but hopefully these people would be able to do their jobs regardless.Yes, but people slip up all the time. It is not a critical issue.Giggle again. But then, people misspell words all the time. Big frakkin' deal.Yes, or just badly misguided. This is something we see with celebrities all the time. They advocate for the environment, yet f**k up when it comes to themselves. I too am guilty of this.I think this was a horrible mistake, a gigantic error of judgement. There is no excuse for it. But to not "get" what happened? Everybody "gets" what happened. It was just a stupid decision.I don't like throwing around the "racism" card. Incompetence, yes.No. No authority means just that.Yeah, the situation sucks, but I have no answer for this. Go ahead, call me an idiot. The truth of the matter is that we have no idea (at least I don't; I'm not an economist and therefore cannot hazard a guess) if doing what Obama did was better or worse than doing nothing. I don't know how to fix the economy. Do you?See previous answer.

So, do you like my answers? Here's the thing. You never asked what I think of what Obama did. Yes, I voted for him. Yes, I still think he's better than McCain/Palin would have been. But you know what? Substitute "Obama" for "Bush" in every one of your questions, and my answers would have been the same. The media and the outspoken fanatical minority DO NOT speak for us all. A lot of us can actually think for ourselves (who woulda thunk!). We are not mindless worshipers, as you seem to believe.

I find it interesting to see how defensive people are getting over the presence of an anti-Obama thread considering how many anti-Bush threads there were when he was in office.

(I'm anti-bush too, can't stand the hair in my teeth)

I preferred Obama over McCain. I don't think he's perfect by any means, but by being at least a tiny bit left leaning makes him better just by definition.

I have no problems pointing and laughing at Obama when he does something retarded.

I think it's natural for people in a politically mixed group to feel uncomfortable jumping in a point-and-laugh train when people in the opposite end of the spectrum are likely to take things too far into the unfunny territory.

IP,

The media did everything within their power to get Obama elected, despite the fact that he was the least experienced of the four major candidates (including the VP nominations).

So the media will do anything they can to keep him there.

To all your questions: Bush would have been ridiculed and criticized for every single one of those situations you put forth.

They especially would have made fun of him for trying to open a window on one of his first days in office instead of a door.

I think that the New York flyover was a very poor decision and it would have been, no matter who made it. This is because, A: Scaring a city that has already been the victim of a major terror attack with a low-flying airplane is just not smart, and B: Has no one in the president's staff heard of Photoshop? Honestly, most of the users here could probably render a better picture with their 'chopping skills than the picture actually turned out to be.


It's really not that spectacular. Just my 2 cents...

Josh, 70 million people voted for him, and whether hardcore republicans want to believe it or not, not all of them did it without putting research, care, and thought into their vote.

The media is taking it too easy on him, yes, but it's not the be-all-end-all reason he's in office.