This is another subject that has always bothered me tremendously. The idea that a church should be granted special tax breaks (that we pay for with higher taxes) is insane.

Churches should be taxed like any other business. Like any other business, let them write off any charity work that they do. Churches are businesses. They do not exist solely to bring people to God, they exist to bring people to God AND to generate income for the employees and officers of the church. Just as Wal*Mart exists to bring affordable prices to people AND to generate income for the employees and officers of the business.

To automatically give them a free ride makes no sense. They don't have to pay property tax, sales tax, income tax, and all the other taxes that you and I and the store down the road pays? If a church is selling baked goods they don't pay taxes, if Billy's Bakery is selling baked goods, they pay taxes.

The concept is just beyond me. You also get the "modern" and "innovate" churches. These are churches that don't have pews and the like, they have many small tables for people to sit around, often have food and drinks for sale, some even have a stage area for a band to play. Sounds like a diner or club, but no it is a "church"

I am always reading about a church which runs assorted fund-raising (they always call it that, never income) acvtivities. Here is Tallahassee they had one running a car show. Now there is a famous car museum in Tallahassee which pays taxes. When the "church" operates a car museum they don't have to pay taxes.

Hell, you have a amusement park down in central florida that was able to retain their tax-free status since they contend that although it is an amusement park in all aspects including rides, attractions, food, cotton candy, and the like, it is actually teaching people about God so they don't have to pay taxes.

There is just no reason why the business which sells a God and collects income from that should be treated differently than a company that sells pencils and collects income from that.

The seperation of church and state doesn't have any bearing here. The government wouldn't be making laws against or for a religion. They would simply treat each business as a business. If the church is generating income, if they are successful than they can pay the taxes. If they are not generating income than there won't be any taxes owed other than property tax if they own any property.

With this idea, Microsoft could easily declare that they believe that Bill Gates is the avatar of their God and that their operating system is their holy book and should be distributed around the world.

The same thing goes for the misleading "non-profit" companies. Let them write off any charity work that they do. There are very few if any truly non-profit companies. Sure the corporation may not make a profit, but the officers of the corporation may do extremely well. It is simply bookkeeping to increase the expense side of the book until the profit is 0. That doesn't mean that the business didn't generate a bunch of income, doesn't mean that they should be treated differently.

Let them all be treated the same. If they do charity work, writing off their taxes might very well get them in a status where they owe no taxes. Heck they may even get a refund of somekind. That would be fine as long as they are treated like you, me, and any other company.

I can't argue with you about religious organizations/churches, they should pay taxes. They delve into politics and often they have more assets than they offer up to charity. They can pay out billions to defend their preachers or pay off whistle blowers, they get their coffers pilfered by their own brethren and they get land donations worth far more than most of us will make in a year. And, you can become an ordained minister of your own religion and claim tax-exempt status with very little effort and paperwork. It's just not proper.

Since I work part-time for a non-profit I just can't agree with that across the board. The organization I work with helps people in crisis (Women Helping Women, but we help anyone). It's a very small organization providing therapy (mostly) to people in need. What I make there pt is 1/3 what I make in my full-time job. Most of the therapists have private practices and provide services there because they believe in what the organization does. We have a few clients who do not have to pay for services but most are on a sliding scale and some are full scale, which is still less than what they'd pay for a therapist in private practice, yet the quality of therapy is great. Part of my job is making sure people pay. It's not easy, let me tell you, most of these clients are in trouble financially and emotionally, I tread a fine line to keep us going and not alienate or upset the client. And the therapists are pretty lousy at pushing for money, most of them would do the therapy for free. We have to bring in money though or get shut down, but we squeak by most of the time. We get donated equipment and print things on scrap paper. We count the stamps we use and rely on donations and grants to get anything big that we need.

I can't speak for other non-profits but I can speak for the one I'm involved with and taxing us would be the end of an organization that has struggled to meet it's goals for 30 years.

That is extemely commendable that you help so many people that are in such need.

You are right. My point is more or "churches" than anything else. That is why the post is 94% church-related and the rest "non-profit"

My point, or at least my conception, is if your orgaization is struggling and have such little income, you wouldn't have to pay taxes. Rather the little taxes you owe would be completly offset by the charity work you do as well as your expenses.

There are many many non-profit organizations which stuggle to survive. Who operate on a shoestring with all volunteer work-force.

It is unlikely they would have to pay taxes even if they were treated as any other business. There would simply not be enough profit/income to generate taxes especially after deductions.


My point about non-profits are more for the major ones such as the Red Cross, who may help out many people, but generate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue may end up paying some taxes.

The main purposes of churches are to help the community around them.

Many many churches run on very little money (compares to their expenses) that they do get as donations or fund-raisers. And what money they do get they put back into the community.

Taxing such organizations would make absolutely no sense and would be like government shooting themselves in the foot. So if the government starts taxing non-profits and churches, many of these organizations would go out of buisness. Many people who need assistance would have to go to the government for help, therefore the government (meaning the tax payers) would have to foot the bill.

You can write off gifts to churches and non-profits on your taxes. If you coulden't, many people would not give. And the only way to give so that you don't pay any taxes would be to donate 100% of your earnings. Therefore you woulden't have any money left.

And I know as a fact people who work for churches and non-profits are not exempt from income taxes. Churches and non-profits would not exist if they did not have any paid staff, so yes, generating an income for their staff is important to helping their community.

WMS - you need to come to Dallas and look at the churches here. There are many churches that have incomes in the tens (if not hundreds) of millions on dollars.

I think 2many was not talking about truly charitable entities...but groups like Trinity Churches...the "founders" of that Church have to squeeze by on a piddly little salary of $855,000 per year while living in a dump of a $10 million, 80-acre, eight-home ranch near Dallas. Oh, how can they live in such poverty?

Or the impoverished Benny Hinn (faith-healer extraordinare) who barely limps by on his 1-million dollar a year income and a $3.5 million home in the Los Angeles area and drives an $80,000 Mercedes-Benz G500.

The list goes on and on....

To constructively add to the conversation, I must say that I agree with 2many on this topic.

I think for any Non-Profit organization to truly be tax-exempt, they must show that their income is very, very close to their charitable expenses...and any money (to include salaries) that are not charitable expenses MUST be within market value. (i.e. No preacher needs $1,000,000 a year salary).

Not to be rude, but that is incredibly naive. The main purpose of the vast majority of churches is the same as Microsoft, to make money. (maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but I really don't think so.)

Fine. If the church doesn't make much money, doesn't have large amounts of land and spends a bunch of money doing charity, than they won't have a tax burden. Remember I said tax them like any other business. If they do charitable work, they can deduct that just as you do, or as any other company does.

I am not saying that shouldn't be the case. I am merely stating that churches are taxed as any other business which they in fact are.

As I said above, it really gets ridiculous when you have so-called "modern churches" which hardly even pretend to be a church. As I said, they will serve food, drinks, offer live music and yet label themselves a church so don't have to pay taxes. They also operate "church fund raisers", which are nothing more than a book store, restraunt, gift shop, amusement park etc. Same exact business as someone who pays taxes but since they label themselves a church, they don't have to pay taxes

That is true that employees are supposed to pay taxes. I know for a fact that many many many do not. I sell manufactured homes and the number of employees including the pastor/priest/minister that doesn't pay the taxes they should is large, but that isn't the point. Again, treat them like any other business. Wal*Mart writes off their payroll as an expense just as the church can.

It all makes sense to me. They are indeed a business. Whether it is some slimy cult, some small-town church, or the Catholic church. All make money in different amounts as any other business. Let the ones that have large profits be taxed as any other business. Those who have little profit won't be taxed just as a business which has little profit wouldn't be taxed.

There are many huge churches with huge amounts of incredibly valuable land. They don't have to pay property taxes because they wave a magic wand and declare themselves a church.

Basically, they "sell" god to people.



Oh, and hell yes, I think they should pay taxes.

Man, this is a slippery slope. Yes, I think there are some churches that should be paying taxes. Especially those masquerading as churches. I also think there are some large churches that are truly committed to charity and giving back to the community and work hard for that goal every day. I think they should be tax exempt if they are truly non-profit. The problem is where do you draw the line and who gets to draw the line? It's such a huge loophole and there are lobbyists around every corner who will spend a lot of money not to let that happen.

Amen!

It is an easy line.

1) None should be tax-exempt

2) the "churches that are truly committed to charity and giving back to the community and work hard for that goal every day" can deduct that work on their taxes just as General Motors does when they make charitable contributions or any other business does charity work.

Do you see? If the church does good, they won't owe taxes as they will have sufficient deductions. If the chuch has millions of dollars in property, cash, and amulets, than those will be taxed as any other multi-million dollar company (unless, of course they do millions of dollars of charitable work that qualifies for deductions)

First of all, the majority of churches are not out there for the money. The adverage church only has 75-90 attenders, and of that, really only 30% of the congregation gives. Most pastors also have got to have second jobs to make ends meet.

And no, not everything a church does is tax-free.

The only thing that churches make money on that are not taxed is the money that they get from donations and fund raisers. They are not "Selling God" because the money that they get is from donation. It's illeagal to force poeple to give. If they forced peple to give money it would be selling.

Things that churches "sell" and if the money goes into profit for them is taxed. Just like if a church puts out a series of books, cd's or anything like that, they have to pay taxes on that just like anyone else.

Churches who run buisnesses inside their churches like bookstores and food courts and hair salons, such things ARE taxed, just like any other buisness. So a church who has a bookstore the part of the money going towards the bookstore they have to pay taxes on. I know this as a fact.

Not all churches and pastors and staff pay their taxes. Not all buisness owners, self-employed, employees of buisnesses and every working american pay their taxes also. Yes, no matter who they are they are breaking the law if they are not. But you shouldn't assume if one church or pastor is breaking the law every one out there is breaking the law and is getting away with it.

And yes...it's sad if a religious leader is making hundreds of thousands of dollars off of donated money. (of which they are suppsed to pay taxes on) It's fine if they are making money off of selling books and materials, (which in turn would be taxed) just like it would be fine for any other person to sell things that they made. But if a religious leader is making a huge income off of donated money and nothing is being done to help whatever cause they are to help, the answer is simple. Just don't donate.

one more argument: If a church's money they get from donation is taxed, they should have every right to lobby and to be involved in political processes, including telling their congregation who to vote for and give money to canidates and help them on their campaign trail. (which is now illeagal)

"no taxation without representation"

They sure do make people feel guilty if they don't "donate".

Sounds like you just felt guilty for being a stinge...

Whats with all the complaining eh?

I've never met one with a second job Actually, forcing people to pay money is extortion, but I've seen lots of "religious leaders" engage in that, they use guilt as their weapon. This is true, but I don't think 2many was referring to lay employees, that was my take anyway you are referring to sales tax, not income tax They already do and no one stops them. People might complain but that doesn't stop them. They already are poltically involved and the current regime in this country has tried to exploit that. Fortunately it seems to be backfiring on them during this election. It is just because they are so politically involved that I believe they should be taxed and if they are really doing "break even" charity work (real charity work and not using money towards political contributions) then they can deduct that just as any other business can.

Also, I don't think 2many was referring to individual churches as much as he was referring to regligious organizations. The catholic church isn't 1 single, barely-getting-by church but a huge, very profitable entity, same with the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists among thousands of others. Show you're not making a huge profit and are doing good charity work and your taxes will be nullified, what is wrong with that?

I work for a large church that has many pastors, and yes, most of them need second incomes or outside work in order to live in the area. I also know dozens more from other churches who have the same situations.

Plus, "Guilt" is still not force. If I go down to the local store, they can call the cops and have me arrested if I don't pay for their items. If I go to church and the pastor makes me feel guilty for not donating, and I gon't give, they cannot pursue legal action for my lack of giving.

It's more of an assumtion than reality that churches as orginizations are as involved politically as people might think or talk. Because people from churches vote for one canidate or party over another doesen't mean that the church is telling the people "you must vote for this person or party". Some people or groups of people who attend the church may campaign or give money to one canidate but that's their personal doing. Some polititions try to appeal to certain religious groups, but that doesen't mean the church as an organization is suporting them. Yes, churches are aloud to talk about political issues (anything can become a political issue) and are aloud to tell their people which canidate stands for which issue, but they cannot specifically tell them that they support one canidate or party over another. they also cannot give their money from the church to a politician or party, nor can they campeign for them. Just because some politition is endorsed by certain religious groups does not mean that their support is coming specifically from a church.

I understand what 2many is saying, and it does seem unfair for churches not to be taxed fot their profits. But it would be equily be unfair if churches were treated like any other buisness yet their political restrictions were different.

I don't know what the issue is in the US, but here in Australia the church is not a political unit. As far as I know my church gets tax breaks, we are a church of about 300 people and only 2 are on the pay role. We have around 3 full time volunteers devoting their lives to councelling people in need (Christian or not). I myself have a full time job as well as devoting about 4-5 evenings a week to a cause which I believe in. We have annual community events such as a free carwash, A community care day where we fix up peoples yard's for free (with no obligation/ asking for nothing in return). Not to mention the multitude of departments, all volunteers, that are devoted to serving our community and the people in it.
The good that comes out of this place is priceless and has a huge positive impact on peoples lives. We are not a church that turns people away for any reason.

The fact is the media likes to put a negative, biased spin on almost anything. If I hear something the media tells us to believe, I like to check the other point of view to see whats really going on.
Remember there is such a thing as tall poppy syndrome...

I can see where you're coming from when I look at certain churches, but when looking at the one I attend, I know for a fact that they are really struggling and introducing taxes to them would undoubtedly cause them to close down. I think this would unfairly affect the smaller churches.

Now the larger churches which are thriving with golden chalices and golden boxes to put the money they got from their golden offering plates most definately need taxed. But, would it be fair to tax one group and not the other? Perhaps there should be an income level before a tax is imposed?

I don't know.

I do think, however, that if you started to treat them like businesses they will start acting more like businesses and we won't see their community work anymore. At least not at the level in which they currently contribute.

You are missing the point. As Dolly said, it is more the huge church groups such as the Catholic church.

If the church you attend is struggling than they wouldn't have to pay taxes just like a business (or individual) that is struggling wouldn't have too.

Remember, they can still deduct charity work just as any other business can

Dolly answered your other statements quite eloquently.

You are misunderstanding me on your last point. At no time did I say that churches should have to disavow a political stance. Quite the opposite. I am saying to treat them like any other business. Tax them. Tax their income. Tax their property. Allow them the same deductions that are available to other businesses, and yes allow them any and all political freedoms available to every other business.

As you agreed, it is simply unfair to say compan 'x' shouldn't have to pay taxes because they label themselves a church.

I don't mind churches being tax-exempt.

But set one foot over the political lobbying line and *whammo* it should be revoked.